In this frank interview, Author Martina Clark shares her journey through life from her HIV diagnosis, to becoming a public health activist, having an international career with the United Nations, and following her dream of becoming a writer.
Host Sherrilynne Starkie welcomes award-winning author, educator and public health activist Martina Clark to episode 13 of the 50 Women Over 50 podcast. Diagnosed with HIV at 28 years of age, Martina thought she’d be lucky to live five more years. Today, she’s 58, living well and loving life! She says her fifth decade has been her happiest and most productive so far.
“I’m among the very first people with HIV to reach this golden age,” she explains. “I feel lucky to be here and appreciate each day.”
In this frank interview, Martina shares her journey through life from her diagnosis, to becoming a public health activist, having an international career with the United Nations, and following her dream of becoming a writer. She describes aging with HIV and shares her hopes and dreams for the future.
Martina Clark is an activist with more than two decades of global public health and social mobilization around HIV. Following a mid-life career change, she is now an award-winning author and educator.Her first book My Unexpected Life: An International Memoir of Two Pandemics, HIV and COVID-19 is now available as an audio book.
Following a successful career at the United Nations, she is now an Adjunct Lecturer at LaGuardia Community College and volunteers as a mentor for young women writers.
Sherrilynne Starkie started this show as a creative project with the goal of interviewing 50 women past their 50th birthday to learn how they see the world, what lessons they’ve learned and what advice they have for us all. She’s been blogging and podcasting for 18+ years as part of a successful marketing and communications career and looks forward to learning from the women she will interview.
Subscribe to 50 Women Over 50 wherever you get your podcasts and please share it with your friends.
Machine Generated Transcript
What follows is a machine generated transcript. It may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the podcast.
50 Women Over 50 Episode 13
Hello, and welcome to episode 13 of 50 women over 50. A podcast for women whose personal confidence is born of experience. I'm your host, Sherrilynne Starkie. My dream for this podcast is to interview 50 women from all walks of life who are over 50 years of age, about what they've learned by their fifth decade.
So that we can all learn from them too. And today I'm welcoming award-winning author, educator, and public speaker, Martina Clark to the show. Diagnosed with HIV at 28 years of age, Martina thought she'd be lucky to live five more years. Today she's 58 living well and loving life. She says her fifth decade has been the happiest and most productive so far.
In this frank interview, Martinez shares her journey through life. From her diagnosis. To becoming a public health activist, having an international career with the United nations and following her dream of becoming a writer. She describes aging with HIV and shares her hopes and dreams for the future.
I love speaking to her. And I learned so much from her. I know you will learn a lot too.
[00:01:12] Sherrilynne: How old are you? I'm 58.
[00:01:15] Martina: 58 and
[00:01:16] Sherrilynne: a half. You're a little bit younger than me, so, but it's taken me this long actually, like I'm, I'm 59, I'm going to be 60. I, I'm only just getting to feel good in my skin as a, 50 year old person and I'm almost about to turn 60
[00:01:32] Martina: Yes, I, that totally resonates. Okay,
[00:01:35] Sherrilynne: so, tell me about your 50th birthday party. What did you do to celebrate turning. So
[00:01:40] Martina: for my 50th birthday, I was in New York here and where I currently live, I met a group of friends at a bar south of Houston Street. We took over the back room and it was. A glorious celebration among friends. There weren't particularly gifts. I don't recall. I think I said no gifts. Yeah. But there were many cakes. Lots of people brought cakes. So, there was actually like a sampling of different cakes.
[00:02:06] Martina: People could have.
And
[00:02:08] Sherrilynne: how did you feel coming up to it? Like, for me, I was full of trepidation about it, but also trying my best to ignore it at the same time.
[00:02:20] Martina: I think that I come to my birthday. in a very different way than probably many people. Because when I was 28, I was told I had HIV and probably five years to live. Oh my. So, every birthday, five come, came and I was like, oh, I'm still here. And then 10 and then 15. And then, I sort of wanted to go back and slap the doctor to why did you do this to me? But of course, in 1992, he couldn't have known different, So when I came up to 50, I was just so happy that I was still here to have my 50th birthday at all, that I think I was probably more delighted than many people might have been.
[00:03:01] Martina: What a wonderful, I really, really embraced it. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that with every birthday, I just feel like I count my blessings that I have another one under my. And at this point, my belt, which is not quite as tight as it used to be, but, yeah, I look forward to birthdays. I've always loved birthdays and I, I look forward to each one and getting older, which had you told me that in my twenties, I would've said no way.
[00:03:29] Martina: But it has absolutely been the case for me. And how are you feeling? Healthwise. I'm in pretty good shape. In terms of HIV, I'm actually in very, very good shape. The medications all work for me and that I don't have any, side effects from the medications particularly.
[00:03:44] Martina: Right. But I had covid, I was an early adapter and got covid early on, and, that actually has done more damage, oddly enough than HIV.
[00:03:55] Sherrilynne: Right. So Yeah, because you're one of these people with that, with the serious health concerns that we're told to really stay cloistered, right?
[00:04:03] Martina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:05] Martina: And in my case, it's, it's really, it's, a conundrum for both me and my doctor because it's hard to know if I have a worse case because I have HIV underlying. or if it's not as bad as it could have been, because I take the medications that I take for HIV, right. Which are not the same, but sort of in a similar family. And so maybe the case that I had early on would have been much worse if I wasn't on those medications. Who knows? Maybe I wouldn't have got it if I didn't have HIV. I don't know. And were you hospitalized? I was not. Thank goodness. Okay. Oh, that's,
[00:04:44] Sherrilynne: Yeah. And you got it in the first wave.
[00:04:47] Martina: I got it in the first wave in, late March of 2020.
[00:04:50] Martina: Yeah. That
[00:04:50] Sherrilynne: must have been terrifying. It
[00:04:53] Martina was. It was. Yeah. Not quite as terrifying as I suspect it was for most people. Namely because, because of HIV and I'm already in touch with my doctor on a regular basis. Hmm. I was able to reach out right away and they called me every single day to make sure that I, they were checking in with me that I wasn't, getting worse or miss wasn't missing something critical that needed to, send me to the hospital.
[00:05:21] Martina: So, I had excellent sort of care, and my neighbors were extraordinary and made sure that I always had food, right. Whether it was food they prepared or they did shopping for me or whatever needed to. And then this might sound a little bit strange, but my partner had actually left the beginning of March to go visit his family in Florida.
[00:05:46] Martina: And then when it hit, he decided to stay where he was. So I was on my own right, but in a way that was easier for me to manage because then I didn't have to worry about him getting it right. And so, and now we have FaceTime and you're never really alone. Have people to reach out to
[00:06:03] Sherrilynne: and we didn't know then, right?
[00:06:05] Sherrilynne: Like we thought it was the bubonic plague or, or something, and surely like lots of people died from it. I mean, oh yeah. I mean, I, I just heard on the radio this morning that, two thirds of Canadians have now contracted Covid through all its varying different waves. And, I think if they had told us that, Way back in that March that two thirds of you are going to get this, there would've been rioting in the streets or something.
[00:06:33] Martina: I think that is also proof, for me, and that comes from having a career in public health before my current job, ENT trusting the vaccines and the and that they haven't eliminated it. And the vaccines, the strength wears off over time, but it's made a huge difference for the people that are vaccinated or that the bulk of the population is now both, vaccinated. The people who do contract it don't get such a bad case. Yes.
[00:06:58] Sherrilynne: Yeah. And I think that bears out when you look at the, the global statistics, compared against the Spanish flu in the, in the 1917, well, the late teens of the 19 hundreds. So, you've been, you're well into your fifties now. What have you been doing to keep yourself busy in your fifties?
[00:07:17] Martina: I keep trying to have a boring life with nothing to do, and I just failing miserably at it., So I left my previous career, at 48, I guess, right? Just before my 48th birthday. And then at 50 I started an MFA in creative writing and literature. And I had always wanted to be a writer and then my life sort of took other paths, and so, I tried to correct my navigation, got back on that path. And that was a fabulous experience. I wouldn't say that every writer needs an MFA to write by any means, but being in the community of other writers, yes.
That was just a wonderful gift to give myself. I even lived in the dorms for a semester, which was a hoot, I'm not sure my dorm mates saw it the same way to have this old lady with them. But I thoroughly enjoyed it living on campus for one semester, and that was enough. I never actually did that in undergrad, so it was really fun to do that.
And then I went back for one year and worked for the Department of Peacekeeping operations, as their HIV advisor. And since then, I had been a college instructor, a professor. And I teach writing English 1 0 1 and reading the biography, which is a critical reading class.
And I've taught global politics. And in January I'm going to teach public speaking. And I wrote a book, I'd actually been working on the book before I, before I turned 50, but I really focused in on it with the M F A and other, workshops and retreats and things that I went to. And so that book was finally finished.
It was published in October of 2021. My first book at the age of 57.
[00:09:09] Sherrilynne: My goodness. Yeah. And you've done more in your fifties than most people have done in their first four decades, right.? It's incredible.
[00:09:19] Martina: Yeah, that's, no, it's been great. The title of my book is My Unexpected Life, an International Memoir of two Pandemics, HIV and Covid.
Right. Very long title, but, Yeah, very personal. It, it chronicles my life with HIV and then it weaves in my, career, if you will, with the United Nations as an HIV educator, and then thrown in for fun a lot of the travels along the way. So, it's a little bit of a travel memoir, very much a personal memoir, and then a little bit of sort of just non-fiction educating you about the United Nations from within.
[00:10:05] Sherrilynne: If this is too personal, just tell me it's too personal and we, we won't include it in the show, but I'm interested in what is the experience of HIV as a woman in your fifties? What does it mean in your day-to-day life?
[00:10:21] Martina: That's an excellent question, and it's not too personal, at least not for me.
First of all, it's kind of as I was saying around birthdays. It's, I feel lucky that I am here to be in my fifties, and obviously I would rather not have HIV, but just the fact that I'm still here feels really fortunate. I am now a part of what we call the group of people who are aging with HIV.
And we're sort of a new cohort. we've never existed before because HIV 's been around, it was identified 40 years ago. So, we're the first people to get this old with HIV. Right. And I think that statistically I would have to look up the numbers to verify this, but in this country, I think that the number of people living with HIV over 50.
Is at least as many as less. And it might be more just because so many were infected early on. Yes. And then we had massive, campaigns to help people not get HIV. So, the numbers started to go down the new infections. So now there's this huge population of people who are aging with HIV. And there are a few things on a day-to-day basis.
One, just the fact that I have to take medications every day, which again, I'm happy to take them if they keep me alive, But it's only one pill that I take every day versus what we had in the beginning were, many, many, many pills. Right? And scientifically I have read many studies that say that having HIV in your body ages your body like 12 or 13 years.
So physiologically my body thinks that it is more like 70 Okay. Than, than 58. And I haven't been 58 before. I haven't been 70 yet, but I kind of feel like that might be true, because I feel very creaky. Just everything hurts all the time. Sort of a, an underlying inflammation. Right. And also, I don't know if that's partly the covid.
But it's a little bit tricky to, to sort of figure out which of this is just getting older. Yes. Which of it is maybe Covid and which of it is HIV? But I just spent some time with my family and watching my sisters who are both, who are seven and eight years older than me, respectively. I feel like I have more achy, creaky age stuff.
than either one of them. Right. So as a genetic sample of three women, I definitely feel that my body is just constantly dealing with little things all the time that, are frustrating. I think is probably the best way to, to describe it. Not, not terrible. There's no one thing that is debilitating by any, any means.
And my brain is still functioning. It was really good. But, but I'm definitely aware on a daily basis that my body's fighting something.
[00:13:35] Sherrilynne: So, you've been through a lot., and you've learned a lot I imagined, over the last 20 years. But what advice would you give your 30 year
[00:13:42] Martina: old self, my 30 year old self?
I would tell her to have more confidence to stop listening to the little voice in her head that says, you're not good enough, or you're not smart enough, or you can't do it, or you shouldn't do it. And to. To move forward in life with knowledge that you can do whatever it is you are determined to do, might not be easy.
Might take you a few hurdles to get there, but don't let other people distract you or your lack of self-esteem in my case, distract you because I think that the thirties, oh my goodness, our thirties. Such glorious years and forties and fifties, but especially thirties and forties because we're, we're still so vibrant.
We have so much more energy and so much to give. And yet we're sometimes tamped down a little bit like, but you're still young. Give it time that'll come when you're late age or whatever. Don't listen to that. Feel the confidence to move forward and. The things that make you happy. And I guess that's another thing, sort of a separate thing about being happy, is to make sure that whatever it is you would do if you didn't have to work, if you didn't need to get money, try and incorporate at least a little bit of that into your daily life, whether it's in your personal life or in your job.
Because if you don't, you're going to be miserable. And that's a good way to feed your soul, is just to honor that passion, whatever it is, in some way every day. As much as did
[00:15:28] Sherrilynne: you that you didn't do that when you
[00:15:29] Martina: were in your thirties? I absolutely did not do that, at least for the first several years of my thirties because at that point I was working for the United Nations, in the, the squishy underbelly as I call it, and this huge bureaucracy.
I loved the work. I valued the work. I was grateful to have the work. I was the first openly HIV positive person hired to work at UN Aids. And at the same time, I took it so seriously that I decided I couldn't do anything else that I really loved. Right. And I squished down all of my creative passions.
And until I found a way to weasel those back into my life, I was miserable for a long time. Oh, that's all, not all the time. Yeah. I mean, not, not like 24 7, but I, but I, and I didn't realize it at the time that part of my being miserable was because I wasn't feeding my creative side. Yes, yes, yes. I was trying so hard to just like, be the good worker, be and do what I I'm supposed to do and change the world and save everybody, little things, but I forgot that, it's okay to also sit down and draw a picture sometimes, or paint Easter eggs or just read a book for fun. Even though you're maybe supposed to be working on a report, sometimes you need to replenish your soul with the fun stuff so that you can bend more. I'll write about that. Hundred
[00:16:59] Sherrilynne: percent. Yes. I'm behind you on that.
[00:17:01] Sherrilynne: I have another, HIV question for you. You said you were the first openly HIV positive person to be employed by the UN. What made you decide to go public about your, I don't know if you say it's an illness or a condition, like what's the vernacular for that,
[00:17:19] Martina: that your status?
Yeah. I think for HIV we would say about, open about our status. Yeah. Of being HIV positive. And just to clarify, it was only the first openly positive person at UN AIDs. Not the entire UN system ever. Okay. All right. It was the program set up to respond to HIV specifically.
It's still, okay. It was no small thing. It was a lot, a lot put on my shoulders, I imagine. But I think that, Basically, when I tested positive in 1992, we did not have treatment yet. There were some medications, a lot of them were really toxic. And, but, but there were no viable treatment options. So, the perception that I had when I tested positive, enhanced by the fact my doctor said I had five years to live.
Was that, I would be dead in five years, or, soon thereafter or something, maybe before, who knows? But without the knowledge of any treatment options, I and a lot of people felt like we had nothing to lose. So, we should do something to make the situation better. And I felt like I had never seen a woman with HIV even though I lived in San Francisco, which was very HIV receptive, if you will, and so many people with HIV in San Francisco, but I only had a perception that I'd ever seen gay men.
And so, when I tested positive, I was like, wait a minute, how did this happen to me? I did not know. I just simply didn't know that women were at.
Or seriously could be at risk. I, I think I intellectually could have figured that out, but I didn't because it, I didn't match the campaigns that were, that I saw everywhere. So, I realized that I wanted to be a voice to help other women know that women do in fact get HIV in the United States and, it can be prevented.
but that a lot needs to go into understanding that you're worth taking care of. first of all, that whole little self-esteem thing comes back. Right. That, your life is worth protecting. And then just the basic facts that, of course women can get HIV, just like anybody else, and statistically we're more than half the cases in the world, but most of us don't know that.
So, I felt. Even if I couldn't reverse the course for me, if I stayed one step ahead by being an activist, maybe I could help somebody else avoid the same situation. And I truly thought I had nothing left to lose. And it gave me a sense of purpose and it never really made HIV. Okay. I still wish I didn't have it.
But it helped me sort of make it feel like it. At least counting towards something, right? If I could help somebody else. And I know a lot of other activists had the same feelings and, we also saw a trend that after 96 when the medications became available, the number of activists kind of slowed down a little bit for a while because people felt like, I actually do have a lot to lose because I now can take these medications and probably have a fairly normal life. I don't have to tell the world. So, it shifted a lot of things. So, I think a lot of the activists early on, it was that we felt we were going to die anyway. We might as well make it count.
[00:20:58] Sherrilynne: And what is the state of HIV infection? These days, like we don't, we don't hear about it in the media at all anymore.
And I know that in Sub-Saharan Africa that it's still a major, major issue. But what about here in the Western world?
[00:21:15] Martina: I will admit that I don't know the statistics off the top of my head. I should probably print those out. But what I can tell you is that the rates of newly infected people went up a tiny bit during covid.
Because the campaign stopped the support stopped the support for people who were in, vulnerable populations who might be more at risk stopped. So, the numbers started to go back up a little bit. Okay. But we definitely still have, I don't want to say thriving, because that makes it sound good, but we have a, a very real epidemic in North America that is,
The good news, of course, is that people can access treatment and so the prognosis is very different than it was 30 years ago when I was diagnosed. Right? But people are still getting infected. I truly believe that it come, it comes back to the fact that HIV is contracted for most people, the majority of people in the world, it's through sexual contact. Right. And we are still squirming around talking about sex and that's what keeps us from having open conversations about how you prevent it.
[00:22:27] Sherrilynne: And things are just so different now than when you and I were in our dating years. Oh yeah, I've never even looked at a dating app. Like I've never even seen one, I haven’t, and I know that it's normal because I mean, there's lots of young people in my family that, they've met and married and every, like, this is how they date now that there's no such thing as going to a singles bar. Singles bars don't exist.
[00:22:55] Martina: at home. Yeah. Yeah. It is a, it is an absolutely a different world out there. Yeah. In terms of, how people meet, and I don't even, I don't know how you. Weave that into your profile if you're living with HIV.
[00:23:11] Sherrilynne: If you know the answer to this question. Listeners, can you please tell us? You can get me at Sherrilynne at Sherrilynne Starkie.com. Send me an email. I'm very interested to learn about this.
[00:23:20] Martina: For the first time ever, I truly, truly feel like I, I love my partner. I don't want to, to break up with him by any means. If I found myself single at any point, I think I'd be okay. Yeah.
And I would not have been okay for a lot of my life because I felt incomplete without a partner. Felt like I was somehow damaged. And then the HIV just blew that up. That nobody would ever want me because I was broken and dirty and damaged. These are all the things I told myself which were not helpful things, but a lot of people experienced.
And so, I felt I needed a partner more than I just wanted a partner. So, I went into things for the wrong reasons in my past. Now I'm in a good place. I'm with a person who appreciates me first and foremost for who I am, and the HIV is an issue, but not the, the biggest issue in our relationship by any means.
But I also do genuinely feel like I'd be okay on my own. I like myself. Now finally. Good for you. That's a great thing. Yeah.
[00:24:26] Sherrilynne: So where do you see yourself in 10 years then?
[00:24:30] Martina: In 10 years, hopefully. I see myself back in California. I live in New York, but I am not a New Yorker. I am a Californian through and through.
So, I hope to be in Northern California closer to my family. Because I find that as I get older, it's more and more and more important to me to be in close proximity to my family, especially as my nieces and nephews start having their own kids. And, yes, it's, yeah. It really matters. And I guess I would love to be living a life where I make money from my writing or other creative endeavor.
And then teaching sort of if I want to teach versus that I need to teach.
[00:25:16] Sherrilynne: So, but you're not planning on, on retiring, then you're going to keep active and keep busy
[00:25:20] Martina: and I don't have the option at this point. So, I'm, I'm hoping that by the time my, in 10 years from now at least, I'll be closer to, it looks more like 70 in the States these days for people to retire.
Oh my. Yeah. I would retire today if I could. Okay. But to me, retiring doesn't mean not doing anything. It just means I get to do what I want to do. Yes. And not have to have to go to a job just to make money.
[00:25:52] Sherrilynne: Right. Understood. Yeah. I don't know. I like work, so like I'm with you. I enjoy it.
I get to meet people like you and have great conversations and it's not really like work Right. When you enjoy it. So, I Exactly. I got no plans to retire. I know that I should be thinking about it and I'm trying to, but I can't see it. I just can't visualize it. I don't know. I'm sure when the time comes, I'll know it and I'm just not there yet.
Yep. What are you most hopeful about for your future?
[00:26:29] Martina: Ooh. That's an excellent question. I think I am most hopeful about the prospect of living a creative life. And again, I, a lot of my life I didn't think that was a viable option. And now I see it coming into focus more and more, through my writing, through the book.
It's just been recorded. I did the narration, for an audiobook coming out in January. I was also recently a part of a playwriting class, and I had a 10 minute play produced by Real Actors and it was, oh my. Amazing. So I am, I feel like I'm finally able to, to just pursue more of my creative gifts because I think they are gifts.
And it's a shame if you don't use them when you have them.
Yeah, wonderful. That gives me a lot of hope and.
Totally
[00:27:27] Sherrilynne: agree. I'm looking forward to seeing some, some more books and some more writing from you. Maybe a play. Yes. Good for you. Should we change track here and to, and go onto the quick round? Sure. So, what are you reading, watching, binging?
[00:27:45] Martina: I just binge watched, the entire season of Wednesday, which is on Netflix, and it's a story about Wednesday Adams from the Adams family, and it was quirky and delightful and, just a perfect escapism kind of show. And for reading, I currently, I'm reading a book called, which is written by a Latino gay man who ran an advice column or other gay Latino. And it's a series of essays where he answers questions, about how'd he come out, how do you be who you are, things like that.
[00:28:26] Martina: And it is a delightful, wonderful memoir. Is it English? It's in English, yes.
[00:28:31] Sherrilynne: So, I know how busy you are with your various creative and, and professional endeavors, but do you find time to give back? Are you supporting any causes or helping out in the community or,
[00:28:47] Martina: I do. Primarily what I do is I volunteer as a mentor with a program called Girls Write Now and Write as in W R I T E, girls.
Right., where we are paired up with, teenage, in my case, she's 17, I guess, teenage writers who might not otherwise have options to, to work with professional writers. So, I am her mentor. We meet approximately once a week. She, I either give her a prompt or she'll bring something that she's been working on, and I help her shape it into something.
She does all the heavy lifting, but yeah. But it's, it's a wonderful program. I absolutely, I feel blessed to be a part of it and they do such great work. So that is the main thing that I do.
[00:29:34] Sherrilynne: It sounds like a wonderful thing to be involved in. It really is. I'll put links to, in the show notes to, to all these books and, and things that you've described so that people can find them.
[00:29:43] Sherrilynne: And is there an app that you couldn't live without?
[00:29:48] Martina: It might be Duo Lingo, which is an, language app. And I have become a little bit too devoted to it. and I started using it because I was teaching just before Covid. I was teaching in a school where, students are primarily Spanish speaking and my Spanish is not very good, so I thought, this is terrible. I have to, I have to get my Spanish up to speed, and now it's become like just a crazy challenge where I just sort of flipped through all of these languages and spend way too much time on them, and I'm not sure that I'm really learning any of the languages, but it's so much fun. That would be my, I would be heartbroken if I had to get rid of that one.
[00:30:32] Sherrilynne: could see that for you, because, because you are a writer and language is your medium. Of course, yeah. You'd be interested in other languages and how they work and Yes. Yes. So, I'll have a link to that app in the show notes too. We've come to the end of all the questions that I wanted to ask you. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you'd like to share with our listeners?
[00:30:57] Martina: I don't think so. Only just to remind people that my, my book, my Unexpected Life is coming out as an audiobook in January of 2020. I did the narration, and it was a wild experience and I absolutely loved it. And okay. I hope that the listeners will like it.
[00:31:17] Sherrilynne: Well, thank you so much for being so generous with your time with me today.
I really enjoyed this conversation. It's been
[00:31:21] Martina: good to get to know you too. Thank you. Likewise, likewise. Thank you so much.
That's it for episode 13, this has been 50 women over 50 a podcast for women whose personal confidence is born of experience. Thank you to award-winning author and HIV activist, Martina Clark for joining me today. And sharing her unique story.
I appreciate getting to know her. And I admire her frank honesty in discussing some highly personal matters. I'm inspired by her. And I look forward to listening to her new audio book, as soon as it's launched. There's more info on that in the show notes, along with links to Martina’s socials and her hardcover book and to the other organizations and resources that we discussed on the show. So, check them out.
And if you have a second, please drop me a rating. Or review. Or both. On apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's connect and create a whole community of wise women over 50 by sharing a link to the show with your friends and connections. See you next time on 50 women over 50. I'm your host, Sherrilynne Starkie.